Curse

Mimi Miyagi · Aug 22, 2005, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

Actually it was quite simple, I responded to the inane comments that you seem to have omitted in your response to me. You know the ones where you laid down a rule, I belive it was your third rule, which stated that I was not to say what was intended and what was not, dispite the fact that your very first rule argued that using a skill as intended is not an exploit. You actually said that I could not read minds and that I should not pretend to, but apparently your rules only apply to those who disagree with you.

Failing to have an answer for any one of the points that invalidate your points you then choose to give up the argument entirely and insult me. FTW!!! lol.

1 - I didn't edit out my comments, the BBS software did.

2 - I can't for the life of me see how you can mix two completely separate arguments and claim they refute or contradict one another. It's not MY fault you failed reading comprehension 101. The first was explaining that an exploit is not a skill that to some people's opinion is "overpowered". That's an opinion, not an exploit. I can't help it if you don't know the difference between an exploit and an unbalanced (in some people's opinion, again) skill.

3 - Does or does not the skill work according to it's description?

While you maintain this "Enchantment", target ally cannot take more than 5% damage at one time. When Protective Bond prevents damage, you lose 6-3 energy or the spell ends.

What part of that description doesn't meet the qualifications of the skill not working properly? Is it or is it NOT? Does it or doesn't it work exactly as it says it does?

If it does, it's not "broken", nor is it an exploit. It may or may not fit your idea of what game balance is, or not, but that's your OPINION. It also is working as intended the developers wished, simply because it works as advertised. There are no hidden bonuses, or it makes you lose less or more health, or fails to stop working when it says it would.

Please do not lecture me on what *I* wrote, as you're failing miserably.

Now, about reading the dev team's mind. I JUST provided a description of a skill straight from the developers. The skill works as written. You can NOT argue (well, you could if you're a moron) that the developers didn't INTEND for the skill to work in the fashion it does, as it works exactly as they say it should. This does NOT violate any rule I wrote. I said to provide direct proof from a dev that the skill isn't working as intended yet claim *you* know what the development team thinks. HOW? Where is your proof?

I'm still waiting for your proof, instead of rehashing your OPINION.

Algren Cole · Aug 22, 2005, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

While you maintain this "Enchantment", target ally cannot take more than 5% damage at one time. When Protective Bond prevents damage, you lose 6-3 energy or the spell ends.

What part of that description doesn't meet the qualifications of the skill not working properly? Is it or is it NOT? Does it or doesn't it work exactly as it says it does?

you can get prot bond down to taking only 1 energy per hit....so the skill description is not accurate.

Silmor · Aug 22, 2005, 08:52 PM // 20:52

The skill description is entirely accurate, it just scales from 0-12, it doesn't scale all the way to 17, so although it could be considered somewhat incomplete, it is most certainly not inaccurate.

But if a single skill skews a significant part of PvE towards one specific build/method of appropriating items and wealth, it's in ArenaNet's best interest to tackle it. To those people making excuses about their 'right' to this skill: ArenaNet gets to decide on that, and that's why I've given up trying to argue with you people - people get stupidly defensive around something that's putting easy cash/items into their pockets.

To those threatening to leave if this gets nerfed, you've lived without 55/105 farmers, you can live without 55/105 farmers yet again. If this is the sole thing holding your interest in GW at this point, maybe you don't have that much time left in this game anyway. Don't support your claim to 'right' on the 55/105 monk with gripes about unrelated issues such as grind and bad PUGs, they should not excuse bad game balance like this.

berko · Aug 22, 2005, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lost

My monk was created as healer monk, beat the game as a healer monk, and will continue to remain a healer monk.

Same here man, only difference is, I am now in the Ring of Fire and only those missions remain for me to beat the game.

Ristaron · Aug 22, 2005, 09:37 PM // 21:37

The reason monks can solo the tough places is because jackasses like you (referring to the creator of this thread) believe monks are inferior and should just be there to heal everyone.
Hell, I am sick and tired of being ordered around by some arrogant warrior who has starter armour in the Crystal desert and is trying to take on a huge mob of creatures solo while screaming for me to heal him. It's my reward to be able to solo the places you will never get to in your fancy platemail helm, and make a lot of money for my troubles. Your turn to bow to me when I sell you an ecto for 5k. Your turn to say "yes, sir!" when I ask you if you're a n00b. Your turn to be my bitch.

Dragou Du Porzan · Aug 22, 2005, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

The thing that pisses most people off about the 105/55 build is that it takes no SKILL whatsoever to pull off, and an invincible character should not exist in the first place.

I apologize for picking one quote out of your post and harping on it, but it does get a bit frustrating to hear these two fallacies repeated over and over again and this sentence just happens to have both together. First off, the 105/55 smiter is hardly invincible. Like every other class, there are areas that they will excel in and areas where they will be brought low with ease. The fact that the first stage of the UW is one area where the 105/55 smiter excels isn't a good reason to call for a nerf of the build, IMO.

Secondly, indeed there are tasks that a 105/55 smiter can do with ease. But does that mean that they have no skill? I use my 55 smiter to explore the UW for personal enjoyment. I apologize for tooting my own horn, but when I laboriously fight my way past the Obsidian Behemoths and start probing into the Undead lands on my own, I don't think it's fair to say that I lack skill when I'm doing this. I guess my point is not all 105/55 smiters are built strictly for farming. There are plenty of us who just like to explore solo. Is that so wrong? It's disheartening when a group of people you're not bothering in the least start demanding that your avenue for enjoying a game be removed.

Weezer_Blue · Aug 22, 2005, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Of course copying a build from a forum requires no skill. But there's a pretty good chance that you either run an air spike, a spirit spammer, an E/Mo smiter, or some other FoTM type build. Which makes you a hypocrite. These builds require no skill.

By the way, I congratulate the original 105 builder for not only creating a conditionally effective build, but also pissing off so many people who understand so little.

Maxiemonster · Aug 22, 2005, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Stop bitching about the 105/55 Monks.. What's your problem..?

Money doesn't make you cool. Someone with a Monk like that can't pay more then the best items, and even those, are pretty cheap. If you play the whole storyline the way it should be played, you'll get enough gold to make that character equiped with the best items.

capitalist · Aug 22, 2005, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragou Du Porzan

I apologize for picking one quote out of your post and harping on it, but it does get a bit frustrating to hear these two fallacies repeated over and over again and this sentence just happens to have both together. First off, the 105/55 smiter is hardly invincible. Like every other class, there are areas that they will excel in and areas where they will be brought low with ease. The fact that the first stage of the UW is one area where the 105/55 smiter excels isn't a good reason to call for a nerf of the build, IMO.

Secondly, indeed there are tasks that a 105/55 smiter can do with ease. But does that mean that they have no skill? I use my 55 smiter to explore the UW for personal enjoyment. I apologize for tooting my own horn, but when I laboriously fight my way past the Obsidian Behemoths and start probing into the Undead lands on my own, I don't think it's fair to say that I lack skill when I'm doing this. I guess my point is not all 105/55 smiters are built strictly for farming. There are plenty of us who just like to explore solo. Is that so wrong? It's disheartening when a group of people you're not bothering in the least start demanding that your avenue for enjoying a game be removed.

Exactly. Sure you can go on a solo smite run, but it takes skill and careful planning to do much else. Behemoths are a pain, as are Coldfires in any large amount. We all create our own challenges in this game, so I am thinking a live and let live mentality best fits this situation.

jesh · Aug 22, 2005, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragou Du Porzan

First off, the 105/55 smiter is hardly invincible.

Never said it wasn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragou Du Porzan

The fact that the first stage of the UW is one area where the 105/55 smiter excels isn't a good reason to call for a nerf of the build, IMO.

Kindly re read my post again, I never called for a nerf. I called for fixing the rewards system, which is why people farm in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragou Du Porzan

Secondly, indeed there are tasks that a 105/55 smiter can do with ease. But does that mean that they have no skill? I use my 55 smiter to explore the UW for personal enjoyment. I apologize for tooting my own horn, but when I laboriously fight my way past the Obsidian Behemoths and start probing into the Undead lands on my own, I don't think it's fair to say that I lack skill when I'm doing this. I guess my point is not all 105/55 smiters are built strictly for farming. There are plenty of us who just like to explore solo. Is that so wrong? It's disheartening when a group of people you're not bothering in the least start demanding that your avenue for enjoying a game be removed.

I never called for a nerf or a removal. Your idea of fun is your idea of fun, and I respect that. It does take skill to do what you do, but ask yourself this. How many other people bother to try to do the same? How many stick to their herds of cows instead, just to rake up cash quick? How many go on google, type "invincimonk build", copy what they see, and never look back?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Of course copying a build from a forum requires no skill. But there's a pretty good chance that you either run an air spike, a spirit spammer, an E/Mo smiter, or some other FoTM type build. Which makes you a hypocrite. These builds require no skill.

By the way, I congratulate the original 105 builder for not only creating a conditionally effective build, but also pissing off so many people who understand so little.

I have a mo/w healer, a w/mo tank, a n/me blood caster, and my new protector monk. I charge for my services on none of my characters. None of my characters farm or rely on fads to be effective, either.

Sure, the creator, (whoever it was), did have a lot of insight into the workings of guildwars, but how many people that copy the build do? Maybe 2%. You might think that's low, but there are -that many- of those "monkroaches" out there.

On the issue of soloing the UW:

There was a crazy w/r that went all tactics and use shield to do damage, and relied on stances to keep his butt alive. He was able to kill them off one at a time. Yeah, that's real efficient. Props to him though for trying, and not making another m/w.

Here's an instance of a build that requires -skill- to pull off. Go to google and type "power mesmer". Using the last class anyone could think of, the creator combined skills in such a way that he gets hit less than 3% of the time, meaning a 98% chance of success with 3 enemies at a time. Of course there's a certain order the skills have to be cast in, certain vital ones that can't be interrupted, but this build will never be a FoTM. Why? You can't enter the UW, go to bed, and wake up alive in the morning. You'd be shredded to pieces.

And lastly, another build that can do the same thing as the monkroaches can... granted it requires a monk secondary, but here goes.

N/Mo
Aura of the Lich
Protective Spirit
Mending
Whatever else you like

Aura halves your damage, turning spirit into bond, effectively, without the energy cost. Equip some +1healing items and recast mending until you can hit 14 for the +4 regen. Wala.

Ensign · Aug 23, 2005, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymboric Treewalker

My guess is that you have not seen the very simple mesmer skill - Conjure Phantasm - imagine what a -5 degen does to a 105 hit point monk...

First off, -5 degen does nothing of consequence to a 55 HP Monk. The good builds are well aware of their weakness to degen attacks and specifically shore up their defenses there. That regen is also the most efficient healing for a 55 HP Monk should not be glossed over.

But because the point has been lost again, competitive PvP Protective Bond builds are not 55 HP Monks. Saying 'but I can kill a 55 Monk!' doesn't mean anything. Different circumstances, different builds.

Peace,
-CxE

SOT · Aug 23, 2005, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calimar

SOT: fallacy in logic is as evident as clear day if one takes time to reason. It's LOGIC - not just phylosophy. It's mathematics. "First order logic" if you want to look it up on the 'net, there's plenty of clear and very interesting literature, fast reading.
Don't like it? sorry. I can say the exact same thing in different terms, does it make it more efficient or a better argument? nope. So, to use your words "we should not use it cause you don't like the term?"
"Ad hominem" is latin - not a language I'm fluent with, but it's pretty obvious to me it means "to the man" or something like that. Do you need an encyclopedia? hardly.

That was the most insanely stupid post I have ever seen. Your response was aimed at the wrong person, Einstein. LMFAO.

Mugon M. Musashi · Aug 23, 2005, 12:04 AM // 00:04

to sum up :
- 105/55 monks are not invincible in PvP
- 105/55 monks are not invincible in PvE
- 105/55 monks are used for farming (but, hey, farming can be done efficiently with Warriors and Elementalists too)
- in the end, everybody play the way they want to play

I don't see why the hell people are complaining about the 105/55 monks...

SOT · Aug 23, 2005, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mugon M. Musashi

to sum up :
- 105/55 monks are not invincible in PvP
- 105/55 monks are not invincible in PvE
- 105/55 monks are used for farming (but, hey, farming can be done efficiently with Warriors and Elementalists too)
- in the end, everybody play the way they want to play

I don't see why the hell people are complaining about the 105/55 monks...

Because if they were not complaing, they would not have anything else to do, except post threads like this about some other topic, like why coke o cola is evil, or why gym socks are the antichrist, or why...You get the idea...

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

You didnt solo in the sense of the word we are talking about. He is talking about SOLO as in without henches, just you.

So was I. That is the whole friggin point, his post is baseless accusation. I solo in the god damn UW all the time, and he says it cannot be done unless you are the class he claims is unbalanced. I, nor any associate of mine, is that class. This is the dilemma, peeling back the denial and getting to what this thread is REALLY about: Nothing but one player having a fit, and my refusal to sit here and listen to it silently. Whether or not he has agreeing souls or disagreeing souls, his original post is based on a misconception, and outright disinformation on his part, and his refusal to shut up about it because I won't stop proclaiming his thread to be outright false crap.

Once again, his post is non-reality. You DO NOT HAVE TO be the class build he specifies to solo, he simply picked on a class, and I called him on it, and the rest is history.

Fallacy indeed.

Boofhead · Aug 23, 2005, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann

i think his point was why should monks be the only class that can solo the undeworld? when nobody else can (you will notice that he said why should monks farm WHERE no-one else can) not that its impossible for anyone to solo anywhere at all.

Just FYI someone thought up a Mesmer build that could solo the Bladed Aatxes in Underworld.

I think the skills used were these:
1. Signet of Midnight (elite)
2. Epidemic
3. Distortion
4. Wastrel’s Worry
5. Empathy
6. Phantom Pain
7. Chaos Storm
8. Spirit of Failure

Signet of midnight, epidemic, distortion, and spirit of failure used to avoid damage, and the rest used to damage mobs.
It's a lot tighter and requires more timing and a bit of forethought but it's certainly possible.

I'd try it out myself but I don't have a PvE mesmer

jesh · Aug 23, 2005, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boofhead

Just FYI someone thought up a Mesmer build that could solo the Bladed Aatxes in Underworld.

I think the skills used were these:
1. Signet of Midnight (elite)
2. Epidemic
3. Distortion
4. Wastrel’s Worry
5. Empathy
6. Phantom Pain
7. Chaos Storm
8. Spirit of Failure

This is what I was reffering to, it's the 'Power Mesmer' build that was posted on gwonline.net. It certainly will never reach the popularity that the m/x has, but it's nice to see some creative people trying new things.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 23, 2005, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

I, nor any associate of mine, is that class.

Do you use protective bond or protective spirit?

SOT · Aug 23, 2005, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Do you use protective bond or protective spirit?

No I currently do not, which is why I even entered the thread to begin with. The OP says that those 2 items are the focal point for his main argument, but because I solo (botless before anyone starts that shit again) in UW and FOW without those to skills, or that class for that matter, therefore disproving his entire thread as nothing more than whiny bullshit.

Another thing to think about is, despite a small group of people saying he is correct that it is PROVEN FACTOID that this is going on in UW is simply not indicative of reality. I pick up random groups, on purpose, all the time also, when not soloing, and I NEVER get that build. NOT EVER. What district are you people in? I simply see no validity in the OP and cursing at me and screaming at me and then sniping back at me because I keep pointing that out does not change the fact that no one from anet has come forward to acknowledge this is a problem, nor am I hearing it anywhere but right here, repeatedly, and to no effect save people's blood pressure rising.

The isseue simply, like the economic doom-saying, does not exist, and I am playing the same game many of these people are, I thought...

Son of Mooky · Aug 23, 2005, 02:13 AM // 02:13

It is just a game. It has no effect on reality. So if people want to copy something and use it then let them. People post builds on forums all the time. Others copy them or modify them. Sometimes it improves the build or leads to new things all together.

I am normally a healer but also have built this smite build for fun. And guess what. When I leave my computer that fact that I have followed a flavor of the month for one of my characters has no impact on myself or the people around me. I play the game for fun. I give stuff away or not. That is my choice but at the end of the day it has no impact on any one else in the real world. All this constant ranting does nothing but give people headaches over a video game.

It is just a game let it go.

Winter Lady · Aug 23, 2005, 02:31 AM // 02:31

After reading 12 pages of replies, I found some really good arguments made and certainly there are some good readings!!

It sure helped kill time while I'm on my day off!

Here are my thoughts after reading all replies:

I'm still not convinced that the skill - protective bond - is "broken". I am not one of the developers of the game and therefore I wouldn't say the skill has been "broken" when it is doing exactly what the description says. One may say the use of ‘protective bond' has been abused, while another may agree on that 'protective bond' has been cleverly used.

My question is, can a warrior solo some parts in the game? Can an elementalist do the same? I have read from this thread that many had claimed these are NOT impossible. There's even news of mesmers are able to go down to the UW and solo. I also have a guildie - ranger - who can solo hydras and the crystal desert and does his farming daily. Do the skills they use need to be nerfed? Would those skills be called "broken"? Are these any different from a monk doing honest solo farming? I believe not. All these professions can use their skills to solo and farm certain parts of the game, so why call on the monks only?

On other forums, these questions had drawn my attention:
- Why are there 20% +1 skill artifacts implemented?
- Same goes to the minus health focus icons.

Not that I can answer these but since someone is smart enough to put the puzzles together and created a build for an unexpected class to solo in limited areas of the game, it is a build that is strong against only certain other builds, I don't see that a problem at all. I see a similar situation with pvp/hoh builds, one team build is only effective against certain team builds.

IMHO, the ‘protective bond’ skill certainly isn't overpowered since it is NOT invincible to ALL.

Side Notes: I have to agree with some that it is horrible to see some monks wanting to be paid for healing services. Lately, I have changed from mo/me to a mo/w, I am 100% good healer when I'm group with others, but now, I mainly group with guildies to do missions and quests. I am against those who charge for healing/protection services, but I much prefer to solo or farm if I had a choice of searching for a PUG to do anything I play GW for the sake of enjoyment and be able to help my friends online. Too many bad experiences with bad players had me turned away from PUGs.